Contending For Truth - Ligonier Ministries Lawsuit Scandal

Monday, September 18, 2006

Ligonier Ministries Board In the Dark About Lawsuit

Was the Ligonier Board Of Directors consulted prior to Tim Dick filing his lawsuit against me? Is the Ligonier Ministries Board Of Directors completely in the dark about it's lawsuit that they as Board members bear legal responsibility for? Based upon what's just been reported to me that certainly appears to be the case.

I received an email from a gentleman that I found to be most troubling in its ramifications. With his permission I repost it here. However, he did ask that I not use his name, so I'll just refer to him as Jeff. Jeff raises some significant concerns and where applicable I've linked some of his statements to articles that support what he's saying:

Dear Mr. Vance,

Thanks for shining some light on this Ligonier fiasco. I'm sure I'm not the only Ligonier supporter who's been concerned for a long time about the direction that Ligonier has taken. It all seems to coincide with when Tim Dick became president and it's all been downhill from there.

Over the weekend I tried to call three of the Ligonier board members. I was glad to find those phone numbers on your blog. Two them I only got answering machines for but one I did get through to. I'm not sure if he'd appreciate my repeating his name so I won't. What's important is what he told me and I think it's important that your readers know it too.

I asked him if he thought it was right for Ligonier to be suing a brother in Christ? He said he didn't know what I was talking about. He said he didn't know anything about Ligonier filing any lawsuits. So I gave him instructions on how he could find the story online including the Orlando Sentinel article. I asked him how could a Ligonier board member be in the dark about something so significant that's wrecking Ligonier's public reputation? He said, "We as the board only talk about two or three times a year. The Ligonier office doesn't really tell us much of anything. I guess I'd better make a few calls and figure out what this is all about." He asked me to call him back in a few days when he hopes to have some information about it.

Mr. Vance I've served on some corporate boards including a few nonprofits and I know a few things about how corporate boards are supposed to operate. I know this isn't the way it's supposed to be done but I'll also have to admit that in my experience many corporate boards don't do things correctly. I won't say that what Tim Dick is doing is illegal but what he's doing is a major abuse of the process. CEOs and Presidents of relatively small nonprofits like Ligonier don't go filing lawsuits and especially the kinds of lawsuits that are likely to draw a lot of bad PR, not without first talking to their board members about it. That's why boards exist, to give accountability and prevent Presidents and CEO's from making major decisions that could potentially turn into public relations disasters and destroy the organization.

One of the significant functions of a board of directors is to act like a court of appeals both internally for interceding in significant staff disputes and externally to protect the interests of shareholders. With nonprofits we refer to the donors as "stakeholders." In Tim Dick's case he obviously violated that principle. He bypassed the Ligonier board as his court of appeals and betrayed Ligonier's stakeholders in the process. Stakeholders have a right to know that their donations aren't being wasted on frivolous and expensive litigation. Tim Dick is insubordinate to his board and he needs to be severely reprimanded.

If I served on Ligonier's board I'd immediately move to have him fired and find a new CEO and that new CEO wouldn't just be another Sproul family member. I'd also demand that Vesta Sproul resign as a board member. Obviously she's in cahoots with Tim Dick and she too has betrayed the Ligonier board and the stakeholders.

I think that the Ligonier board itself bears responsibility for the gross mismanagement of Ligonier. A corporate board bears responsibility for governing the corporation that they serve. Corporate boards can and usually do delegate their authority to manage the corporation's day to day affairs to the corporate officers that they hire, such as Presidents and CEOs. They don't give up their governing responsibilities they just delegate them. But they always retain control. Telling a stakeholder like me "We only talk two or three times a year" is inexcusable. In a very real sense the corporate board protects the public from the sorts of abuses that can easily be committed by corporate officers. It's supposed to function as a system of checks and balances. The Ligonier board has failed the public miserably. Each board member bears direct responsbility and if they're not willing to do their job they should resign. If they fail to insist that the corporations officers be accountable to the board then they're guilty of gross negligence and they can be held personally and legally liable for the damages that result from their negligence.

A Christian board of directors bears an even higher responsibility. Not only do they serve the interests of stakeholders they have to go about it biblically. They have to obey not only the laws of the land they must obey biblical laws too. If they're too ignorant to know what the Bible requires then they have no business serving as board members of a Christian organization. I've had to resign from more than one Christian board because my fellow board members were unwilling to hold our corporate officers accountable. If I didn't do that then I could have been held legally liable for the misdeeds of the officers and the negligence of my fellow board members. Corporate boards aren't just supposed to rubber stamp what the CEO and other corporate officers decide to do and what they decide they want to tell us what they've done after the fact.

If corporate officers refuse to hold themselves accountable to their boards and if corporate boards are negligent about holding their officers accountable then it falls to the stakeholders to hold them both accountable. As a Ligonier stakeholder I'm going to do that and I hope every other Ligonier stakeholder does that too.

Thanks Mr. Vance for doing what should have been done a long time ago. This lawsuit against you only proves how out of control Ligonier has become. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

I appreciate Jeff for writing to explain from personal experience the responsibilities of a corporate board member, as well as the responsibilities of corporate stakeholders should a corporate board fail to competently discharge its responsibilities. It appears to me that Ligonier's Board is in fact probably little more than a rubber-stamping committee. This lawsuit debacle could have never happened had the Ligonier Board been fulfilling their corporate obligations. This isn't to say however that Tim Dick is off the hook. Tim Dick bears responsibility for keeping his board in the dark about his actions. He should have first gone to his Board to seek their authorization to file this unbiblical lawsuit. RC Sproul bears significant responsibility as well. After all it was RC Sproul who pushed to have Tim Dick hired by the Board Of Directors as President/CEO/CFO of Ligonier, and this in spite of Tim Dick's obvious lack of professional and ministerial qualifications.

It's late for the Ligonier Ministries Board Of Directors to intervene, but it's still not too late. Ligonier's Board needs to immediately take decisive action to rein in the abuses of Tim Dick. The Ligonier Board's second order of business should be to promptly issue a public statement expressing their regret to Ligonier's stakeholders for their governing negligence. In doing these things Ligonier's Board could do much to restore donor confidence. Absent these things Ligonier's support base will probably dry up.

34 Comments:

Anonymous Not much time said...

It's late for the Ligonier Ministries Board Of Directors to intervene, but it's still not too late. Ligonier's Board needs to immediately take decisive action to rein in the abuses of Tim Dick. The Ligonier Board's second order of business should be to promptly issue a public statement expressing their regret to Ligonier's stakeholders for their governing negligence. In doing these things Ligonier's Board could do much to restore donor confidence. Absent these things Ligonier's support base will probably dry up.

Two good ideas. But the board members had better act quickly to avoid their own moral and legal liability.

9/18/2006 04:01:00 PM  
Anonymous "Jeff" said...

Frank I agree that the Ligonier board needs to act quickly and decisively. But what I've usually seen is board members think they can duck their legal liabilities by resigning and that's probably what this board will do. They should know though that since this all happened on their watch they won't be avoiding their legal liabilities at all by just resigning. They're still on the hook. One of those board members is Mrs. Pat Dizney. I've heard that Pat Dizney is also a member of Saint Andrews Chapel and that Mrs. Dizney is very "deep pockets." She especially needs to be talking with her attorneys about all this. On this lawsuit Frank you need to subpoena all the Ligonier board members into court.

9/18/2006 04:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Jen said...

Thank you for this excellent insight into how boards should work and, unfortunately, how they often do work. It sounds like there needs to be a major leadership shake-up (read: firing) from the board on down. I pray that Ligonier will repent before it is too late.

9/18/2006 04:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Practicing Attorney said...

Talked with two Ligonier reps today. Talked with the second rep to confirm the story of the first. The two witnesses -- whose names I will keep to myself for the time being to protect the innocent -- said the same thing, so I regard what I report below as confirmed according to biblical standards of evidence: It seems that there was a staff meeting today about your blog and what Ligonier was going to do about it and what staff were supposed to say about it.

The customer service reps were told:
(1) Ligonier is still trying to figure out what is the Christian way to handle it.

When asked: Isn't it a little late to try and figure out the Christian way after already filing a lawsuit? The response was:
(2) There is no lawsuit, and they're not sure where that idea came from. It's only a "injunction" -- kind of a way to ask the court what to do, because blogs are new, and we're not sure what to do.

When asked for an official statement from Ligonier:
(3) Told the ministry is working on one. Things are moving so fast... we have to make sure we cover everything in the statement... so we're still working on it. Don't have anything official yet.

When asked who informed the customer service reps of the above:
(4) Senior Manager John Duncan

It appears, Frank, that you have them running and running scared. Who was it that taught the biggest lies are the most effective? Was it Lenin? In any case, the leadership at Ligonier are sinning, and they know it, and they cannot defend it, and they don't want to repent, so all they have left is an effort to hide behind a big lie: there is no lawsuit. The truth, of course, is otherwise, as even the pagan press noticed. Ligonier has filed a complaint against you and a motion for an injunction; i.e., they have sued you.

That Ligonier still won't admit to even what is on the public record tells me that more heads than Tim Dick's need to roll. No wonder the Ligonier board isn't aware of the lawsuit.

9/18/2006 05:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Brian said...

Has anyone actually seen this lawsuit yet? Frank, have you read the details of the suit, or are you going off the reporter in Florida?

Aren't lawsuits like this a matter of public record?

Can someone who has easy access to it (such as Frank, who is a party in the suit) please post it so that all can see the details?

Why have we not yet seen the actual law suit itself?

Frank, surely you have gotten a copy of it by now (can't you contact the proper court and ask for a copy?), and since these things are a matter of public record (I think) I would like to see the suit itself.

Anyone got a copy?

9/18/2006 05:51:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Brian, I was contacted by a law firm in Ligonier's back yard that confirmed for me that Ligonier filed a lawsuit against me. They asked if they could represent me (pro bono no less) but I haven't made a decision about that yet. The law firm informs me that not only has Ligonier sued for an injunction they've also sued me for defamation. All the First Amendment legal experts tell me they haven't got much of a chance of winning either one.

No I haven't seen the case yet. As to why I haven't you'd have to ask Ligonier about that. When someone is sued it's not their responsibility to try and figure out in what court they've been sued, case number, etc. That legal obligation rests entirely with the plaintiff to notify the defendant. I'm still waiting for Ligonier to do that.

9/18/2006 09:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Brian said...

Frank,

I am surprised that you haven't taken it upon yourself to get a copy of this most important document regarding the issue of freedom of speech for bloggers.

If it was me - and I'll admit right now that it is not, for those who will come back with that obvious observation - I would want to see this thing first hand myself instead of going off of what other people are telling me.

If I were being sued, and it was a potentially high-profile thing like this might be, I would take the initiative to get a copy of the suit to make sure that I had first-hand knowledge of what was actually contained in it. Otherwise, I might be relying a little too heavily on the statements of others, when I could have easily seen the truth first hand for myself.

Just a thought.

9/18/2006 09:50:00 PM  
Blogger Carson Allen said...

Frank

I would contact that law firm in Florida and see if you could get some details. Why; because they just might claim that they never even filed a law suit and drop the whole thing.

May God give R.C. the wisdom to clean house. I love his preaching so much

9/18/2006 10:19:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

This very disturbing article from Jen, The Heir To Ligonier?:

This is an extremely important ministry for Christians world-wide today and we need to pray for them daily. But what is to be the legacy of this heretofore God-honoring ministry? Are we going to let the world laugh as it crumbles into the gutter? Who will be left holding the reins after Dr. Sproul? In all actuality, Dr. Sproul is no longer holding the reins, and we need to look at the family who is, to hold them accountable.

From the Phoenix Preacher:

In other news….

This one is chilling and disheartening for me…

Ligonier Ministries, the media arm of the great teacher R.C. Sproul, is suing a blogger.

If this is what the church is coming to even in Reformed circles, we're in a world of hurt…

9/18/2006 10:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Jen said...

Considering that Ryan Dick is the Media Relations guy, I just can't imagine why we haven't seen an official statement from Ligonier yet?

9/18/2006 10:30:00 PM  
Anonymous "Jeff" said...

"When asked who informed the customer service reps of the above: (4) Senior Manager John Duncan"

Ah, the plot thickens Mr. Vance. So now it's obvious why "Passerby" refuses to identify himself. Passerby is probably John Duncan and John Duncan wants to protect Tim Dick but he's probably also worried about getting handed a subpoena and having to testify under discovery against Tim Dick.

I'm sure the attorneys who are offering you advice Frank have already told you this, but discovery is an extremely powerful weapon to use against your legal adversary. A guy like you probably doesn't have much of anything you'd need to hide but Tim Dick and Ligonier probably have a bunch of things they'd never want to see the light of day. Under discovery you'll be able to get access to every document, every computer file, every email, every personnel record, every personal tax return, you name it. You'll be able to interrogate Ligonier employees and board members under oath including R.C. Sproul.

I'm impressed Frank with everything you've dug up on Ligonier so far but discovery will take it to a whole new level.

9/19/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Anonymous passerby said...

Frank (and those of your ilk)

Your analysis, and that of others who post at your site, is excruciatingly bad, consistently uninformed, and it has a very unsavory quality to it.

There is no manager, here at Ligonier, who is the least bit concerned about transparency or scrutiny by any friend or foe.

You are ensared in your own misapprehensions, false information and empty gossip.

I'm still waiting for the contact information for your pastor and session.

passerby

9/19/2006 03:29:00 PM  
Anonymous passerby said...

statement of your position :

1. you have no evidence for your accusations
2. you have no evidence that you are a participant in a legal matter
3. you are resisting any request to talk to those who have spiritual oversight over you

do you think you are in an honorable moral
condition with objective onlookers ?

passerby

9/19/2006 05:01:00 PM  
Anonymous itsabouttime said...

One or two things will happen.

They will calculate they have much to lose and will want to work this particular instance out but not other previous ones. Consequently, will drop the suit.

Or they will continue w/ this and the God honoring board members will resign.

9/19/2006 09:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Righteous Indignation said...

Mr. Vance,

I just can't believe some of the stupid things I see a few diehard Ligonier supporters saying on other blogs about all this. The excuses they come up with to turn a blind eye to the enormity of Ligonier's sins are pathetic. One of the recurring themes is "That Frank Vance has an ax to grind. He's got a chip on his shoulder. He's just angry." I don't see that in your writing but I guess that's the best sorry excuse they can come up with to dismiss you. Let's just say you were angry though. Why would that give them justification to disregard what you're saying? I don't think it does. Here's something about anger that I thought was really good from Spurgeon's Morning and Evening from July 13.

"God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry?"
Jonah 4:9

"Doest thou well to be angry? It may be that we can answer, 'YES.' Very frequently anger is the madman’s firebrand, but sometimes it is Elijah’s fire from heaven. We do well when we are angry with sin, because of the wrong which it commits against our good and gracious God; or with ourselves because we remain so foolish after so much divine instruction; or with others when the sole cause of anger is the evil which they do. He who is not angry at transgression becomes a partaker in it. Sin is a loathsome and hateful thing, and no renewed heart can patiently endure it. God himself is angry with the wicked every day, and it is written in His Word, 'Ye that love the Lord, hate evil'."

Frank I don't know if you're angry or not but biblically it doesn't matter either way. If you're angry about all this Ligonier sin you'd be justified. Christians are supposed to hate sin. We're not supposed to coddle sin and that's what I see a lot of those Ligonier defenders doing. Anger isn't sinful. If it were then God would be a sinner. The Bible doesn't condemn anger, it just condemns any sin that might result from it. "Be angry but sin not." 1 Eph 4:26 Be angry Frank with righteous indignation. If ever there was a case where it was called for this would be it. Just keep a righteous heart.

9/20/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger APinkFan said...

Tim;
Here is the 'home phone' [unlisted], of RC Sproul.
....407-333-4106.

9/20/2006 09:43:00 AM  
Anonymous More bad news for Tim said...

Go to Google. Type in "Ligonier Ministries." Hit the search button.

As of a few minutes ago, the seventh entry on the first page reports the lawsuit. On the second page, six of the results are further reports of the lawsuit. The posts aren't all the same, but the main theme is dismay at a Christian ministry suing a believer.

Only one of the top 20 results in Google is a post by Frank critical of Ligonier for something other than the lawsuit.

So, by an admittedly very rough calculation, Ligonier has by filing the lawsuit against Frank done at least eight times as much damage to its reputation so far as Frank allegedly has by posts on his blog.

Because the decision to sue must have been made by Tim Dick, the CEO of Ligonier, the board should hold him accountable more than anyone else for the decline in Ligonier's reputation and donations as a result of the controversy.

9/20/2006 11:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tim Dick is R C Sproul's son-in-law. Tim Dick has fired many fine people to bring his family in to "hang around" at Ligonier Ministries. Tim, Tim's wife, Tim's son, Tim's daughter, and Tim's son-in-law all work at Ligonier making big bucks. R C Sproul has his wife Vesta working at Ligonier. I figure with all their salaries combined, and the perks they receive, the family is taking in close to 1 million dollars a year. Tim Dick has lived with R C Sproul for the past 25 years. They currently live in a million dollar home in a gated community in Longwood, Florida. The Sprouls & the Dicks live with each other, they vacation with each other, they travel with each other, and they eat at the finest restaurants with each other. R C Sproul knows exactly what is going on in his ministry. Nothing happens without R C Sproul's permission. I think the Sprouls and the Dicks would love to hear from all the donors out there, to thank them personally for all the money they are contributing to their bank accounts. So here is R C Sproul's home phone number, 407-333-4106. Here is Tim Dick's cell phone number, 321-299-2615. Give R C Sproul and Tim Dick a call today, and tell them you are standing by them with your donations so they can continue to live in luxury at your expense.

Sincerely,

Bob, a private investigator in California

9/20/2006 12:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Sally said...

sue |soō| verb ( sues , sued , suing ) 1 [ trans. ] institute legal proceedings against (a person or institution), typically for redress : she is to sue the baby's father | [ intrans. ] I sued for breach of contract.

9/20/2006 02:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Astonished said...

I find this post, the comments in it, and the rest of this blog to be astonishing. I don't know much about Ligonier, but I've been around long enough to be able to distinguish between sour grapes and real problems most of the time. I think the problems at Ligonier are real.

If even half of what has been alleged proves to be true and I were a Ligonier board member I would be very concerned. Not just for Ligonier but for my own neck for failure to properly oversee the organization.

And I wouldn't just be concerned: I'd hire a lawyer. The legal interests of Tim Dick and the Ligonier board have diverged. In fact, they are now at cross purposes. Each board member needs his own attorney now, and that attorney had better not have any existing relationship with the organization.

Friends of the Ligonier board members who read this should act like friends: tell them, for their own sakes, to get independent legal representation asap.

9/20/2006 04:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Shame on Ligonier leaders! said...

I've been doing some checking. Guess what? Ligonier lied. Or, rather, certain high-level Ligonier managers have been lying and telling subordinates to lie. What lie? That Ligonier has not filed a lawsuit against Frank Vance.

But there is a lawsuit. The Orlando Sentinel reporter told the truth. So did Frank:

"IN THE CIRCUIT OF THE EIGHTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR SEMINOLE COUNTY, FLORIDA

LIGONIER MINISTRIES, INC., a foreign corporation, and TIMOTHY DICK,

Plaintiffs,

vs.

FRANK VANCE,

Defendant.

CASE NO.: 06-CA-1669-16-K"

Don't believe me? Call the clerk of the court and check for yourself. Stop making excuses for Ligonier or its leaders and confirm the truth.

Then contact the Ligonier board members and demand they fire Tim Dick, John Duncan, and everyone else responsible for lying about the lawsuit or instigating it in the first place.

9/20/2006 05:08:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Thanks for the info Shame On Ligonier. Curious isn't it that Ligonier never had the courtesy of fulfilling its legal obligation of informing me of where they'd sued me, a case number or anything?

9/20/2006 05:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Sarcastic said...

Curious isn't it that Ligonier never had the courtesy of fulfilling its legal obligation of informing me of where they'd sued me, a case number or anything?

Don't be mean, Frank. After all, the lawsuit was only filed almost a month ago. Communications takes time. Maybe the dog ate their email. Maybe they were busy trying to decide what Christian approach to take. So many things could have happened. You really should give them the benefit of the doubt.

9/20/2006 06:07:00 PM  
Anonymous I Don't Believe You Tim said...

I just heard this song on the radio and it reminded me so much of Tim Dick. I was able to find it online. Hope everyone enjoys it and thinks as much about Tim Dick as I did while listening to it.

I Don't Believe You by the Magnetic Fields

9/20/2006 06:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Shame on Ligonier's Attorney said...

Further checking reveals that, along with the lawsuit filed against Frank, Ligonier and Tim Dick also filed an "Ex parte Motion for Temporary Injunction." In laymen's terms, this is a request for the court to issue a "gag order" to prevent Frank from posting any more criticisms of Tim Dick or Ligonier.

This kind of motion is truly extraordinary, because it requests the court to apply a "prior restraint" to stop speech in advance without even hearing from the accused person. Courts rarely grant such motions because, as the Bible says, "the one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." Proverbs 18:17.

If you're like me, you wonder how Tim Dick and Ligonier possibly expect the court to suspend ordinary due process, not to mention basic principles of fairness, in order to shut down Frank's blog. They must have a very good reason, mustn't they? Actually, no.

Instead, Ligonier and Tim Dick, acting through their attorney, claim the court must gag Frank without first hearing his side of the story because it was not possible to contact him:

"The undersigned attorney certifies that the geographical whereabouts of the Defendant are unknown such that it is impossible to contact him.... Moreover, counsel was not able to provide the Defendant with notice and an opportunity to be heard regarding the request for temporary injunctive relief." (p.2 of the ex parte motion signed by Daniel N. Brodersen, of the law firm at: www.iplawfl.com)

Of course, this is not true: the attorney could have contacted Frank and supplied him with advance notice of the lawsuit. Tim Dick knew how to contact Frank. In fact, Tim had been emailing Frank for months before the August 25, 2006, filing of the lawsuit. Even if Tim hid this fact from the attorney, the attorney should have discovered this from reading Frank's blog, which has excerpted Tim's emails since May.

But even if Tim Dick claimed to his attorney that all the emails posted by Frank were fake, the attorney could still have contacted Frank by email himself or by submitting a comment to any post.

This being so, it's hard to avoid concluding that the court has been lied to in this case, just as callers to Ligonier have been lied to when asked about the lawsuit. I don't know if the board has also been lied to, but I do have to agree with the recommendation of an earlier poster that the board members retain their own, independent legal counsel immediately.

9/21/2006 10:37:00 AM  
Anonymous passerby said...

Frank,

In the next few days you are going to see the deficiency of your analysis and those you have misled.

It will become important and constructive to be able to speak with your local church leaders at that time. I will tell you forthrightly that I think you should be disciplined for what you have done and are continuing to do.

I have asked for the contact information of your pastor (following New Testament directive) on six occasions.

Will you not allow a conversation with your church leaders ?

If Ligonier leadership, whom you've slandered, are guilty of all you allege, what do you have to
lose ?

Isn't that where this matter should be resolved ?

passerby

9/21/2006 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger Lindon said...

A few things that confuse me within these comments:

1. Ligonier is described as a foreign corporation. What is that all about?

2. Frank, did Tim mention or even hint at a legal action or injunction at anytime to you in any of his e-mails?

9/21/2006 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

I have it on good authority "Passerby" that you're John Duncan. Any truth to that?

Passerby, I'm amused by your relentless attempted posting of comments to my blog. This one that I've approved is far less shrill than the others that I've rejected, but they all show desperation.

"Isn't that where this matter should be resolved?" I quite agree with you that this issue should have been resolved by Christians. Perhaps my own Pastor and Elders could have been party to a mediation process, along with some other Christian leaders. Why didn't you make any efforts to do so? Don't you think it's a little late now that you've sued me? Interesting, isn't it, that now that your lawsuit is getting so much negative public attention that you've suddenly had a change of heart and you actually would rather do things biblically? How very Christian of you. Now that you've demonstrated your willingness to walk all over the Bible you really think that I'm gullible enough to submit to whatever ecclesiastical tyrannies you also have in store for me?

I've already made it clear what you need to do to establish credibility here. You're wasting your time by your daily attempted postings if you just continue ignoring my instructions. Don't expect any cooperation from me in demanding personal information when you don't even have the integrity to reciprocate and comply with the very demands that you're attempting to impose on me. All you're doing is confirming that the hypocrisy at Ligonier isn't just limited to Tim Dick.

9/21/2006 11:59:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Lindon, I just now received a copy of the lawsuit. It will be posted online shortly and I'll link to it when I know where it's been posted. I'm hoping to have a lawyer offer some legal analysis about it as well as possibly answering legal questions. This is all contingent on that not potentially jeopardizing my case. After all we don't want to be tipping our hand about our legal defense.

To answer your second question, no, at no time did Tim Dick or anyone else giving me any inkling that they'd be filing a lawsuit. I gave Tim 10 days advanced warning. He just used my fairness to him against me by immediately filing a lawsuit, and after he filed it he didn't even tell me about it.

9/21/2006 01:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most likely, Ligonier is described as a foreign corporation because it was originally registered in Pennsylvania.

9/21/2006 02:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Bob said...

I do have to agree with the recommendation of an earlier poster that the board members retain their own, independent legal counsel immediately.

Good luck with that. That's the last thing the leadership will let happen. If board members get that nervous, Ligonier will drop the lawsuit like a hot potato. They don't want board members listening to any independent counsel.

9/21/2006 02:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Scott J said...

Mr. "passerby"

I agree with Frank as do a whole lot of other people who now know about Ligonier's unbiblical lawsuit. Does that bother you at all Mr. "passerby"? Or, are you above obeying scripture yourself? Quit hiding behind your fake name and Mr. Dick and go ahead and tell us that you are Mr. Duncan. What are you afraid of? You are already making a fool of yourself as Mr. Dick has done. Why would anyone give personal information to some RANDOM on the internet. Probably the same reason you won't use your real name and have to make threats under an anonymous on the internet. Your a Pharisee Mr. "passerby". You demand something from others that you yourself are not willing to abide by.

What about Ryan Dick? What kind of biblical oversight and discipline have you placed him under?

And finally, Mr. "passerby", I want to know the names of your pastor and elders. Please? I am going to write to them and ask that you be placed under discipline for your participation in lies and distortions of truth and for participating ACTIVELY in an unbiblical act of hatred toward a brother in Christ.

Ligonier is now becoming known as a fraudulent ministry with much corruption and I will tell you that I personally plan to warn others about what has happened. My pastor and several elders happen to agree with me. They told me so at breakfast this morning.

Repent Mr. "passeryby"! Let's face it. Ligonier Ministries has now been exposed for its corruption and theft of donor money. I still think a little governmental investigation is in order since you have no biblical oversight.

9/21/2006 06:42:00 PM  
Anonymous hmmmmmm said...

Dear posters,

Apparently, Mr. Vance did at one time think that there were occasions that 1 Cor. 6 didn't necessarily apply.

He writes: "I don't necessarily agree that that passage is an absolute prohibition in all cases."

No other point to make here except that before the injunction was filed, Mr. Vance seemed a lot less certain about the exegesis of this passage.

9/21/2006 10:44:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

If you're going to quote me Hmmmmm then at least have the decency to quote me in context, and the context of what I said was this, "I don't know a lot about Dr. Kistler, but I've heard that he's the kind of preacher to actually do something quite unusual. Amazingly enough he actually obeys the Bible! Apparently he'll obey 1 Cor. 6 in any and all circumstances. I respect him for his stance, but I don't necessarily agree that that passage is an absolute prohibition in all cases. As an extreme example, if Tim Dick were to rape Mrs. Kistler I'm quite confident that Mr. Kistler would immediately call 911 and aggressively pursue secular litigation against a fellow Christian..."

So are you seeing a problem here, or an uncertainty, with my "exegesis of this passage"? My position hasn't changed. There are certain cases, extreme cases, where it's biblically justified to take a brother in Christ before the civil magistrate. This however is anything but one of those extreme cases.

9/21/2006 11:06:00 PM  

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