Contending For Truth - Ligonier Ministries Lawsuit Scandal

Thursday, September 21, 2006

Ligonier Ministries Employees Instructed To Lie?

On September 18 I received the following comment posted to Ligonier Ministries Board In the Dark About Lawsuit:

Practicing Attorney said...

Talked with two Ligonier reps today. Talked with the second rep to confirm the story of the first. The two witnesses -- whose names I will keep to myself for the time being to protect the innocent -- said the same thing, so I regard what I report below as confirmed according to biblical standards of evidence: It seems that there was a staff meeting today about your blog and what Ligonier was going to do about it and what staff were supposed to say about it.

The customer service reps were told:
(1) Ligonier is still trying to figure out what is the Christian way to handle it. When asked: Isn't it a little late to try and figure out the Christian way after already filing a lawsuit?

The response was:
(2) There is no lawsuit, and they're not sure where that idea came from. It's only a "injunction" -- kind of a way to ask the court what to do, because blogs are new, and we're not sure what to do. When asked for an official statement from Ligonier:

(3) Told the ministry is working on one. Things are moving so fast... we have to make sure we cover everything in the statement... so we're still working on it. Don't have anything official yet.

When asked who informed the customer service reps of the above:
(4) Senior Manager John Duncan

It appears, Frank, that you have them running and running scared. Who was it that taught the biggest lies are the most effective? Was it Lenin? In any case, the leadership at Ligonier are sinning, and they know it, and they cannot defend it, and they don't want to repent, so all they have left is an effort to hide behind a big lie: there is no lawsuit. The truth, of course, is otherwise, as even the pagan press noticed. Ligonier has filed a complaint against you and a motion for an injunction; i.e., they have sued you.

That Ligonier still won't admit to even what is on the public record tells me that more heads than Tim Dick's need to roll. No wonder the Ligonier board isn't aware of the lawsuit.

Then the next day I received an email from "Joe Lawyer" informing me of a very similar phone conversation that he'd just had with a Ligonier customer service representative. I repost his email here with his permission:
Dear Mr. Vance,

Let me confirm the testimony of Practicing Attorney. The same thing happened to me too. I called Ligonier to find out if they'd ever published anything on 1 Corinthians 6:1-7. "Bob" (I'm using a fictitious name to protect him from Tim Dick's retaliation) told me "No I can't help you with that." I asked Bob if others were calling in and asking to get Ligonier materials on 1 Corinthians 6. He said, "Yes and we've been instructed to just say 'No I can't help you with that'." I asked Bob to explain how Ligonier could think they could be filing lawsuits against other Christians and not be transgressing biblical law? Bob said, "I can tell you that this isn't a lawsuit. It's an injunction. I can also tell you that there's no lawsuit because the blogger hasn't been legally notified."

I thanked Bob for at least admitting that Ligonier had filed for an injunction and then explained that it's impossible to file for a legal injunction without there being a lawsuit. I then pointed out the dishonesty of telling people that because Mr. Vance hadn't been legally served there wasn't a lawsuit. Ligonier's failure to notify Mr. Vance doesn't nullify the suit. I also told Bob that I'd contacted the court and verified that Ligonier had sued Mr. Vance and they hadn't just sued for injunctive relief they also sued for defamation. I explained to Bob that his boss had lied to him and that whether he intended to or not every time he told a caller "There's no lawsuit" he was aiding and abetting a lie. Bob said, "I don't really know much of anything about it myself. I'm just repeating what I've been told to say. Please take what I said as just ignorance. I wish I could say what I think about all this but I just can't."

I asked Bob if he was a Christian. He told me he was. I told him as Christians we need to obey those in authority over us including the boss at work but we can't obey them if what they tell us to do is sin. "What your boss is ordering you to do Bob is to repeat lies and deceive Ligonier supporters. Maybe you didn't understand that before but now you do. Now you can't just say 'I didn't know, I was ignorant.' What are you going to do about it now? Are you going to continue lying?" Bob said, "I wish I were free to answer your questions. I'd like to be able to say what I really think but I just can't." Bob said I should email the customer service manager Jay Ward and tell him my concerns.

Mr. Vance not only is Ligonier Ministries transgressing scripture by suing you now on top of that they're also lying about it and saying they haven't sued you all. This is outrageous and the kind of corporate duplicity I'd expect out of Enron, not a Christian ministry. When I first discovered your web site I thought you must have been some kind of a crackpot but if anything you've only been too gracious to Ligonier. Things are even worse than you've told us. This is corrupt organization and if it weren't for you pulling the alarm I think it'd only have been a few more years and we'd have probably seen another Jim Bakker scandal. It needs to be nipped in the bud now before it gets worse.

I can't support ministries that I can't trust and Ligonier has totally violated my trust. I won't put up with being lied to by Christian ministries. I don't know which is worse, filing a lawsuit against a Christian or lying about it and saying they didn't do it. Thanks Mr. Vance for everything you've done. May Ligonier repent and may God be glorified.

So on top of everything else Ligonier Ministries is training young men and young ladies in the pagan arts of promulgating lies and corporate cover ups. For those who have any lingering doubts about the fact that Ligonier Ministries has filed a lawsuit against me here is the proof (and here's an alternate site as well)

I've received multiple emails from Ligonier fans and supporters asking what they could do. Many have wanted to directly contact Ligonier decision makers but have had no idea how to go about it. Like a lot of multi-million dollar Christian ministries the Ligonier decision makers don't make themselves accessible or approachable, and that only magnifies the accountability problems. I've received multiple reports that Ligonier supporters have been refused the contact information for Ligonier officers and board members, and they're given no assurances that anyone other than Tim Dick will read their mail. So much for accountability.

While it's probably a good idea to contact Tim Dick, or at least cc him on all correspondence, it'd likely be a total waste of time if you were to contact him alone. Mark and Jennifer Epstein know this from personal experience. When confronting Tim Dick he's just likely to say the equivalent of, I don't need your money anyway. Just shut up and go away.

The Ligonier decision makers are the officers and board members. After receiving multiple requests for this information I've furnished their contact information here:

Ligonier Ministries
400 Technology Park
Lake Mary, FL 32746
Toll-free: 800-435-4343
Local: 407-333-4244
Fax: 407-333-4233

Customer Service Supervisor: Jay Ward
email: customerservice@ligonier.org

John Duncan: Senior Manager


Tim Dick, CEO, President, CFO
2741 Deer Berry Ct
Longwood, FL 32779-3071
407-333-4106 (home)
321-299-2615(cell)
email: tdick@ligonier.org


Ligonier Ministries Board Of Directors:

Dr. R.C. Sproul, Chairman Founder & Chairman, Ligonier Ministries, Inc. Lake Mary, Florida
R.C. Sproul
2741 Deer Berry Ct
Longwood, FL 32779-3071
407-333-4106 (home)


Mrs. Vesta Sproul, Director Co-founder of Ligonier Ministries, Inc. Lake Mary, Florida
Vesta Sproul
2741 Deer Berry Ct
Longwood, FL 32779-3071
407-333-4106 (home)


Mrs. Pat Dizney, Director Entrepreneur Orlando, Florida
Pat Dizney
1110 S.W. Ivanhoe Blvd, Apt 31
Orlando, FL 32804
407-841-2264 (home)


Mr. Stephen Levee, Director Real Estate Developer Madisonville, Louisiana
Steve Levee
324 Robinhood Rd
Covington, LA 70433-4763
(985) 809-1717 (home)



Mr. Greg Miseyko, Director Investment Management Consultant, Morgan Stanley Deerfield Beach, Florida.
Gregory Miseyko
63 Little Harbor Way
Deerfield Beach, FL 33441-3606
(954) 596-2111 (home)


Mr. Archie Parrish, Director President, Serve International, Inc. Atlanta, Georgia
Archie Parrish
Serve International
P.O. Box 71716
Marietta, GA 30007
770-642-2449 (office)
http://www.kingdomprayer.org/

As people pass along additional contact information I'll update it here. A combination of letter writing, emails and personal phone calls is probably the most effective method of getting their attention.

The most significant of all decision makers are the Ligonier financial supporters, the "stakeholders" themselves. Think seriously about contacting other Ligonier supporters that you know and informing them. Don't be dissuaded by those who might accuse you of "gossip." By definition sharing your biblically-based concerns with friends over something that's already public information can't be gossip. Ligonier financial supporters in particular have a right to know what it is they're supporting. Do responsible Christians give money to winos and drug addicts which will only further enable their sinful conduct? In the same way Christians should think very seriously about whether they want their tithes and offerings going to an organization to be used for an unbiblical and sinful lawsuit.

32 Comments:

Anonymous Yep, it's a lawsuit. said...

Wow! The geocities site hosting the pdf of the lawsuit sure exceeded its bandwidth limit quickly. Didn't expect the documents to be that popular, so it's a good thing I snagged a copy before the host went down. My conclusion? Yep, it's a real lawsuit. By Ligonier. And Tim Dick. Against Frank Vance. The coverup _is_ worse than the crime.

9/21/2006 05:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Mirror for Ligonier Lawsuit said...

Here is a mirror that will hopefully be able to handle the traffic: [Frank, please add html to make link.]

http://tinyurl.com/nx7m3

9/21/2006 06:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Itsabouttime said...

Frank, if you haven't decided to have the pro bono firm represent you, now is the time. Please be extremely cautious and not give the other side any advantage on this blog as now we see proof of the lawsuit.

As for the doubters, you now see who's telling the truth and who's not. We have witnesses that called Lig this week and said they were told there is no lawsuit. Was the lawsuit filed yesterday then? No, it was filed a couple weeks ago as Frank stated. Please open your eyes as the worst thing you can do is choosing to look away from sin.

9/21/2006 07:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Michael Metzler said...

I have copies here of Ligonier Ministries’ Table Talk, taken from what appears to be their March, 1996 issue. The lesson for the 25th, titled “Courts of the Unrighteous,” stated the following:

“…It was not the moral character of the judges that was in question, but their religious status. The problem was not that heathen judges would be unfair in making their judgments, but that the Corinthians were acting unworthily of their dignity as Christians in seeking justice from men who denied the ultimate source of truth and justice. It was not wrong to appeal to magistrates for justice as Paul did before Caesar. But it was a sin and a disgrace for Christians to appeal to heathen magistrates to rule on matters among themselves” (43).

The lesson for the 26th stated the following:

“If a dispute cannot be settled within the confines of the church, shouldn't the wronged party suffer loss rather than go before an unbelieving judge? That is exactly what Paul says. The victim should be willing to take a loss rather than degrade the church of Christ by bringing a suit against his Christian brother. This is a hard saying but reinforces the seriousness of the offense. Paul, however, does not leave the matter to rest there. He goes on to say that if the Corinthian Church had not been so unashamedly sin-ridden in the first place, they would not have had to deal with lawsuits…” (44).

Obviously, I need not offer my own interpretation of the significance of these words; but for me, such obtuse lingering hypocrisy is unbelievable. I recall one of the papers noting sarcastically that Ligonier Ministries did not “turn the other cheek," and of all things, on such actions as the outlandish “nincompoop” comment. The pride of man is a potent indeed.

Michael Metzler
Moscow, Idaho
www.poohsthink.com

9/21/2006 08:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Obsolete teaching? said...

Michael, thanks for your comment. You'll be interested to know that I called Ligonier this afternoon to ask if any of their former TableTalk issues had been withrawn or repudiated. The person I spoke with said he had no idea, so I asked him to find out for me, specifically about the March 1996 issue, an original of which I possess.

After I had waited on hold for a couple of minutes, the customer service rep returned. He said he had asked everyone and no one knew of any issue being repudiated. I asked if that meant Ligonier stood by the March 1996 issue. He said yes.

So I asked him why, if that was so, Ligonier was suing a Christian, contrary to God's word and to the teaching in that issue of TableTalk. He immediately clammed up and referred me to the bureaucrat "in charge of PR for that matter."

Of course, if they don't care what God's word says, why would they care what TableTalk says? It's just a matter of taking care of PR, after all. Isn't it?

9/21/2006 08:32:00 PM  
Anonymous passerby said...

Frank (if that's your real name)

What a tangled web you weave, when you practice to deceive.

The bad news will continue for you in the days ahead.

Still waiting (8th request) to talk with your pastor and session.

I would like to see you reclaimed, if you indeed possess genuine faith.

passerby

9/21/2006 08:48:00 PM  
Anonymous lucille said...

Mr. Vance
Have you contacted your church and allowed them to watch over these times you are in. If nothing else they can keep you in their prayers.
I want the truth to come out more than most people. I just want you to make sure you are doing all this with the blessings of your church. Having a brother walk beside you is a safe thing to do.

I have two question for you....
Were you a employee of Ligonier and were you a member of Saint Andrews?

9/21/2006 08:51:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Frank,

Very interesting comments by all. I agree that the cover up is worse than the original violation of I Cor 6.

I'm glad Michael Metzler and Obsolete Teaching were able to find the issue of Table Talk that supports what Jen and many others have written this past week. I cannot claim to have read the March 1996 issue of Table Talk but, then again, I was in Boznia-Herzogovina dodging land mines. Come to think of it, history appears to be repeating itself -- except this time the "mine fields" seem a little closer to home.

9/21/2006 08:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Grieved in Texas said...

I was looking for a relevant verse or two but couldn't edit this down when thinking of Tim Dick and others at Ligonier participating in corruption. I also found much encouragement, regardless of immediate outcomes. God is the only truly righteous judge and He and His elect will prevail - whatever happens in and to Ligonier Ministries.

See Proverbs 28.

Let's be sure that we, in our grief and righteous indignation, do not sin but pray and, IN LOVE, do what we can to call our brothers to repentance. It's not righteous or loving to let someone continue in sin, nor can we allow wolves to remain among the sheep once exposed. If I could reach R.C. I would plead with him to clean it up or shut it down.

9/22/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Anonymous practice what you preach said...

Questions Answered With Dr. R.C. Sproul


How should Christian values impact business ethics in the office?

I remember having a discussion a few years ago in the boardroom of one of the Fortune 500 corporations here in the United States. I was speaking to the chairman of the board, the president, and several vice presidents of this corporation on the issue of the relationship between theology, philosophy, and ethics. At the end of the discussion the chairman of the board looked at me and said, “Do I understand you to be saying that ethical issues—that is, policies that we have in our business organization—touch the whole question of ethics, and in turn those ethics touch the question of philosophy, and in turn philosophy touches theology? Are you saying to us that how we run our business ultimately has theological significance?”

I said, “Yes, that’s what I’m trying to say.” And it was like the lights came on in this man’s head for the first time in his life. It astonished me that he thought this principle to be so obscure.

When we use the term ethics, we’re talking about doing what is right. From a Christian perspective, we believe that the ultimate norm and ultimate standard of rightness is the character of God and his perfect righteousness. So biblical principles of ethics have great relevance for the business world. I’m talking about simple things like God telling us it’s wrong to steal. You don’t have to be a Christian to appreciate honesty and respect for private property in the business community.

I once talked to someone who was astonished because they gave $5,000 to an automobile salesman in Orlando, Florida, to have some work done and the guy took off with the $5,000 and never did the work. His wife was really upset, saying, “How can people do that? That’s crooked business.” One doesn’t have to be a Christian to feel violated when a businessman steals one’s money. The Bible tells us to honor contracts, to pay our bills on time. What businessman doesn’t appreciate it when his customers pay him what they owe him? The Bible has much to say about false weights and measures. How do you like it if you are buying “short measure” in perfume or in ketchup? That’s a business consideration. All of these are very practical, concrete principles of ethics that touch the very heart of doing business.

Honesty, industry, integrity—we know that the Christian has no corner on these particular virtues. These virtues are significant in every realm of business and, most important, how we treat people in the realm of business. Do we treat them with dignity? That is a top priority of Christian ethics, that we treat our customers, our employees, our personnel with dignity.


©1996 by R.C. Sproul. Used by permission of Tyndale.
Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. ©1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Used by permission. All rights reserved.

9/22/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger John Steinhausen said...

There's been such wonderful teaching available through Ligonier over the years. Take this for example:

"Sinful self-love is the root of all brawls, quarrels, and contentions in the world. Why are there such a multitude of troublesome lawsuits? What are they but the contendings of one self with another self. One says, 'It is my own, and I will have it, whatever it costs me'." Sinful Self-Love? by Richard Alleine, from the Soli Deo Gloria book by Richard Alleine entitled Instructions about Heartwork

One of the problems with Tim Dick's lawsuit is it's not just a "whatever it costs me" situation. That's the problem with Christians suing Christians. The practical costs of lawsuits is that they effect many more Christians than just the parties to the lawsuit. By his "sinful self-love" Tim Dick is also costing Ligonier (who can even begin to calculate the real costs that this lawsuit has cost Ligonier in lost reputation?). Worst of all Tim Dick is costing the testimony of the church in its witness for Christ.

Mr. Dick haven't you cost us all enough? Isn't it time for you to resign? Oh, and please take your foul-mouthed pagan son along with you.

9/22/2006 10:35:00 AM  
Anonymous I See the Light! said...

The late Republican Senate Minority Leader Everett Dirksen was fond of saying "When I feel the heat, I see the light."

It's really something Frank how you've generated all this heat for Ligonier. If what you were saying were wrong then they should have just ignored you. But even if you're 100% right they still would've been smart to just ignore you. Ignoring you would have left you as just some obscure nobody. Now because of this lawsuit they've made you an icon and now they don't even have the option of ignoring you.

It's impressive Frank how responsive Ligonier is to your articles. They're feeling the heat and they're seeing the light! As of today Ligonier isn't lying anymore and telling callers there isn't a lawsuit. Now they're just saying "I am not able to comment on that at this time. It would be best if you e-mailed customerservice@ligonier.org."

When they finally get around to issuing a public statement I wonder how they're going to explain all the lying.

9/22/2006 11:18:00 AM  
Blogger APinkFan said...

In the midst of all this controversy, I can't help but think about 1st Samuel 3, and the account of Eli and his wicked family. RC has done a masterful job of teaching the reformed faith to countless thousands while his family has set out to destroy his life's work but not without his knowledge and approval. As one who knows them well, I can say that RC [JR.] along with the son-in-law, Tim and grandson Ryan have had designs of taking over the operation and 'reaping where they have not sowed'. None have compassion for souls or for the maturing of the saints. It's all been about 'JOB SECURITY' and the rewards of living off of the generosity of others. Eli's sons were only concerned about the 'perks' of the office and not about ministry.

RC should have seen this coming many years ago but chose to stick his head in the sand and turn over the ministry to those who could care less about the 'Holiness of God'. RC's weakness was ALWAYS about choosing leaders, regardless of what they believed. A Christian ministry should never, in my opinion, surround itself with non-believers because they had certain worldly skills. They would be left in positions to make spiritual decisions among the staff, and the heads would roll with RC standing by to say that it was the board's move and therefore out of his control. This pattern has been in place for over 20 years with some of the brightest, dedicated and hard working Christians left along the curb to ask...What Happened?

It now has come to this, where Hophnai and Phinehas have taken over and Eli is left to say, "Let the Lord do what He will do". Too late for repentance...too late for apologies...too late to ask forgiveness. This amount of Pride cannot be broken where it is written. "knowledge puffs up". The lesson to be learned may be that if you lay down with dogs, even if they're your own family, your both going to have fleas. May God end this fiasco and quickly.

9/22/2006 01:02:00 PM  
Anonymous A better way said...

Frank, I think you have been taking the wrong approach by posting your concerns on this blog for the whole world to see. It's upsetting the Ligonier staff and, even worse, the Ligonier donors. In fact, even the board is beginning to notice! Who knows: it may be the civil magistrate next.

It would have been much, much better for Ligonier, and for you personally, to have dealt with the matter privately. Yes, yes, I know you tried, over and over -- but a little more effort could have made the difference. Tim Dick may be difficult, but couldn't you have sought out some other family member linked to Ligonier? There are plenty to choose from.

I've been doing some research on the various options, and I think all of the brouhaha could have been avoided with the help of: RC Sproul, Jr.

Yes, I realize he has been defrocked, along with his whole session based on pastoral abuse they confessed to, criminal theft of the ARP denominational tax-ID number, etc., but Dr. RC Sproul, Sr., who they say has been an honorable man for 40 years, assured us the charges were fraudulent and, as further proof, RC Sproul, Jr. is now scheduled to be a special guest speaker at the pre-conference seminar of Ligonier's 2007 National Conference. That means he's still part of the team, still in favor. Besides, RC Sproul, Jr. is a master at communicating and well known for opposing frivolous lawsuits. As he commented so eloquently in Tabletalk in 1996:

"Ours is indeed a litigious age. Suits are being filed like they're going out of style. For every problem it seems we conclude the solution can be found in the courts. So while our culture lacks judgment, it yet is ever consumed by judgments. Our courts are clogged, backed up, overflowing with sludge."

Given his strong attack on lawsuits in Tabletalk, it's clear RC Sproul, Jr. would have been an ally of yours, like his father, if only they knew the truth. If only you had gone to them directly, maybe the public scandal could have been avoided...

9/22/2006 01:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Lig Donor No Longer said...

Dear Mr. Tim Dick,

I saw this "motivational" poster and thought of you. Let me know if you'd like to have one for your office. Praying you repent soon. Either that or resign.

Tom

9/22/2006 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger CraigS said...

Frank, you have rightly pointed out that the correct place to discipline Christians is in the local church.

As I have made clear on a number of occasions, I consider your behaviour to be unChristian and immoral.

Could you please email me the name of your church, and contact details for your pastor.

9/22/2006 03:42:00 PM  
Anonymous info on board member said...

For those of you who want to contact Pat Dizney, Ligonier Board Member, here is her contact information.

Pat Disney
1110 SW Ivanhoe Blvd Apt 31
Orlando, FL 32804
Home phone 407-841-2264

9/22/2006 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Meaghan said...

"So on top of everything else Ligonier Ministries is training young men and young ladies in the pagan arts of promulgating lies and corporate cover ups." The entire situation is very unfortunate. As one of the customer service representatives being discussed and who has been responding to the questions received over the phone, let me first start by apologizing to our callers for any confusion. I thought I should respond to the accusations that I have lied, and also apologize for our part in making the situation more difficult. We all were as honest as we could be, but there was miscommunication between the staff regarding the lawsuit. It took a little time for us to sort through this (which I will mention below). No one at Ligonier was trying to lie, and I understand that confusion that it caused. Please understand that when most of those phone calls began to stream in, many of our staff members were away at our regional conferences, so communication was more difficult.

In the end we did refrain from commenting to our callers because as you could verify from some comments, our responses were spun in various directions by speculation. I was pleased to know that people were concerned, but also saddened by the prideful, biased, and disrespectful manner in which some of the callers tried to learn the truth.

You can be sure that we have heard your complaints, but we are not just concerned about the sin in the ministry because ‘Vance’ made a bullet list of grievances—we are concerned for the Lord’s sake. I start everyday in prayer, and I assure you that I would not continue to serve in the capacity of a customer service representative if I believed that management was purposefully asking me to “promulgate” lies. I promise that we were sharing information as quickly as we could, and that was actually the reason for a lot of the misunderstanding.

Once again I apologize that my responses as a customer service representative were not as helpful as we had tried to be. I assure you that I would not continue to serve in the capacity of a customer service representative if I believed that management was purposefully asking me to “promulgate” lies. There have been some responses to ‘Vance’ that he has not shared to post (www.challies.com).

We have all been greatly grieved, but turn to the Lord to work in His ministry. I choose to focus on the sin and not the sinner, and I continue to be humbled and grateful that the Lord continues to use fallen men for His purposes. I will not abandon His ministry, but only pray more earnestly for it. I pray that you will all look for honest resolution to this situation. Soli Deo Gloria.

9/23/2006 07:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

"Please understand that when most of those phone calls began to stream in, many of our staff members were away at our regional conferences, so communication was more difficult."

Yes, I can see how communication could have been difficult while you were all away at conferences. (sarcasm intended) Perhaps the company doesn't provide cell phones? Or the hotels/conference facilities don't offer email access?

I can't help but notice on your blog how little time you speak of the conferences, but focus instead on your vacationing while there--(seeing Laguna Beach, Malibu, Newport, looking for stars---visiting Warner Brother's Studios, Mann's Chinese Theater, the Walk of Fame--etc....) I certainly hope donor dollars weren't spent on the sightseeing portions of the trip too! http://meaghanmay.blogspot.com/2006/09/california-californiahere-we-come.html

For your own sake, you might want to look at the facts here for yourself and not the spin you hear at work or read on challies.com. (In case you haven't noticed, he will only post one side of the story-and no facts ie. tax documents or the lawsuit itself) There is a whole lot of nepotism going on, and a lifestyle being supported that is beyond what a Christian ministry should model.

9/25/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

Meghan May,

I have 2 questions for you.

Did you really speak with Jen, and tell her there was no lawsuit, or rather that you couldn't answer any questions (http://jensgems.blogspot.com/2006/09/did-ligonier-ministries-really-sue.html) or were you at a conference then? Your words from a reply on this blog--"Please understand that when most of those phone calls began to stream in, many of our staff members were away at our regional conferences, so communication was more difficult."

Also, can you confirm Don Kistler was in Orlando last week?

Thanks!

9/25/2006 09:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

oops Meghan, one more question if you don't mind. Could you please tell me what you mean by all the other luxuries travel affords you now? Are these "luxurious" travels paid for with donor money? Thanks for clearing this up.

from your blog:
"I think I may have done this too many times, because the novelty of traveling is beginning to wear off. I return on Sunday only to start all over again (only heading to Houston the following Wednesday). The good news is that I will get to see some of my favorite contacts from work... and all of the other luxuries that travel affords now."

9/25/2006 09:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Questions for Meg said...

Meg, The lawsuit was filed a month ago...Aug 25th. There was plenty of time for staff to be informed. Perhaps they did not want staff to be informed until it became necessary to do so?

Meg, you are not connecting the dots because you do not want to.

Since you work for a donor supported non profit which happens to be labeled a ministry. Donors and Christians have a right to ask questions. The lawsuit gave us the right.

What Ligoneir teaches and what they do are total opposite. How can you stay in a situation like that?

Do not make Ligoneir an idol.I realize you probably need your job as we all do. Bills to pay and it is probably exciting with all the travel and such. But look objectively at the facts if you are able. Ryan needs help from his grandfather and father. Is he getting it? The exorbitant salaries which have just happened within the last 5 years. The defrocking of the son. Do these not cause you to question who you are working for?

If there is one thing I know..staying in such a culture of deceit will affect you for years to come. Being a part of it can be deadly to your soul. May God give you wisdom.

9/25/2006 08:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Mike said...

give it up, Frank! Just delete this blog and move on with your life

9/25/2006 09:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Semper Ref said...

Personally, I have no dog in this fight, but permit me to make one observation. However one regards Ligonier's actions over the past several weeks, one cannot but be impressed with Meghan May's post. I do not know nor have I ever met this young woman. But her honesty and courage in registering her apology has to be commended. She is not senior management but a mere customer service rep and she has risen to apologize, several times, for whatever she might have done, unwittingly, to contribute to this sad saga. This conflict will find a satisfactory conclusion only when there is more integrity of the kind that her post expressed. Charity obliges us to take her words at face value and not speculate on how she enjoys her vacation. That is a mean-spirited reaction to her post, and in football, it would cost you 15 yards for piling on.

9/28/2006 03:49:00 PM  
Anonymous semper ref friend said...

For Maggie (on 9/25)
You sarcastically ask Meaghan what she means by the "luxuries" of travel and then insinuate guilt of misusing donor funds? Try reading her next paragraph where she details the hassels of airport security in the post-liquid-container age.
Geez Frank you got some mean readers!

9/28/2006 05:45:00 PM  
Anonymous truth seeker said...

Semper ref, obviously you have not read Meg's despicable posts at Jen's Gems site. It is filled with spin that does not reflect the timeline or facts. Here is one example of her posts:

I continue to be shocked by you Mrs. Epstein. This is the very customer service representative that you are misrepresenting in your entry. This is now my second attempt to share the very information that you say was so difficult to find. The very information that you could have been given if you had just submited an email to the address that I provided. I am saddened by your neglect of the truth when it is givne to you, and your distortion of fact. I suppose you are now feeling trapped by your deciet, and that is why you are refusing to share the links that I am submitting to you.

For the record, I am a Christian. For the record, we had to wait to respond to the questions that you were pretending to ask so politely, because, as you prove in this entry, what we say often is retold from the bias slant of "uninformed" individuals (though in your case you chose to be "uninformed." I pray you never fully realize the damage you have caused by your malicious attacks on real people who try to serve you, but I do pray for your repentance.
Not only have I shared with you Dr Kistler's denouncement of Vance's accusations, and I sent you links with public statements from Ligonier Ministries announcing the fact that they dropped the lawsuit that you ignore, but now you ignore that information and offer more challenges to others in the ministry--instead of repenting. To ignore the very information that you keep requesting is sinful. This is your choice.

You may still continue to ignore this information to prevent those reading your blog from being more fully informed, but God knows and sees your sin. Looking forward to your recipe.

5:50 AM

God sees your sin, too. Meagan. Get out of there!!

9/28/2006 07:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

I wish I knew how to use html to make this easier to read. I'd love to be able to make the specific quotes I'm referencing here bold, or in italics.
Frank please feel free to edit this as you wish...

semper ref friend,
As it appeared that Meghan's blog had been edited from what I remembered, I did a google search and found the "cached" page from 9-22---sure enough, she had changed some wording....interesting. I wonder what the explanation might be. Is there something to hide? Why didn't she just answer my questions here? Was she instructed by her bosses to change it?

Here is what was there on 9-22:

Actually, the conference is over, so I am back home. I can't believe that I will leave for Houston on Wednesday. Dr. Duncan and Dr. Sproul both blessed me with their messages. I always love the Q & A. We had a great group (or "team") out there with us too.

While gearing up for the conference we found some R & R on the Pacific Coast Highway. I saw a beautiful sunset on the drive (thanks to Karisa for pulling over). We visited Laguna Beach, Malibu, and Newport Beach. We didn't see any stars, but we went to their favorite Starbucks.

We also visited Warner Brother's Studio, where we saw part of the set for Oceans Thirteen, Brad Pitt's motorcycle (he was in his trailer), Stars Hollow (I can't believe it--that was by far the sweetest surprise), the Friends' Studio (and some of their costumes, a recliner, the fooseball table, wedding vows), OC costumes, the Invasion set, the place where the SpiderMan kiss was filmed, the WonderWoman costumer, the General Lee, the new Bat Mobile, and various Harry Potter artifacts. I wore the "sorting hat," which put me in Hufflepuff.The original costumes for the ball in the previous movie were even more amazing in person, although I was amazed at the waist size of every single actress. We even saw Julia Louis-Dreyfus filming an episode of her new show (the New Adventures of Old Christine) in the Stars Hollow town square.

Later we visited Mann's Chinese Theater (home of the star handprints) and the Walk of Fame. We saw the Kodak Theater and the "Hollywood" sign as well. California was a nice reprieve from the Orlando humidity, although L.A. makes Orlando traffic look like a small town.

Here is how that section reads today:
Actually, the conference is over, so I am back home. I can't believe that I will leave for Houston on Wednesday. Dr. Duncan and Dr. Sproul both blessed me with their messages. I always love the Q & A sessions. I'd say more about the conference, but when I spend most of the day on the floor, mingling with attendees and answering questions, I hardly catch my breath. I did get a few moments to listen to the speakers, and in that small amount of time I was blessed. I mostly anticipate the conferences because of the face-to-face interaction that I have with my brothers and sisters who are attending. I am always encouraged. We had a great group (or "team") out there with us too. I did get a chance to break away on our day before the conference with some friends (and spend my own money).

While gearing up for the conference we found some R & R on the Pacific Coast Highway. I had not been to California since I went with my family, so an evening drive away from the city was great. It even helped me see where those attending were from. I saw a beautiful sunset on the drive (thanks to Karisa for pulling over), which in itself was reason enough to praise the Lord for his creation. We drove through Laguna Beach, Malibu, and Newport Beach. We didn't see any "stars", but we went to their favorite Starbucks...in case you were wondering.

We also visited Warner Brother's Studio. It was a brief outing, but very educational, and a great way to get to know the "team" better. We saw part of the set for Oceans Thirteen, Brad Pitt's motorcycle (he was in his trailer), Stars Hollow (I can't believe it--that was by far the sweetest surprise), the Friends' Studio (and some of their costumes, a recliner, the fooseball table, wedding vows), OC costumes, the Invasion set, the place where the SpiderMan kiss was filmed, the WonderWoman costumer, the General Lee, the new Bat Mobile, and various Harry Potter artifacts. I wore the "sorting hat," which put me in Hufflepuff.The original costumes for the ball in the previous movie were even more amazing in person, although I was amazed at the waist size of every single actress. We even saw Julia Louis-Dreyfus filming an episode of her new show (the New Adventures of Old Christine) in the Stars Hollow town square.

Later we visited Mann's Chinese Theater (home of the star handprints) and the Walk of Fame. We saw the Kodak Theater and the "Hollywood" sign as well. California was a nice reprieve from the Orlando humidity, although L.A. makes Orlando traffic look like a small town.


Be sure to notice the comment "(to spend my own money)" that was added, as well as quite a bit about the conference itself, how hard she worked, how she was refreshed etc. Comments that did not appear in her original blog.

As far as the other comment I'd asked about concerning luxuries of travel-here is the comment from the cached version on 9-22
Monday, September 04, 2006
Conferences
This has been a very relaxed week. I don't really know what to do with the fact that Labor Day weekend has now (basically) come and gone, and now I must take responsibility for my new classes, and the pending roar of the final year (Lord willing) at RTS-Orlando (not to mention Ligonier). The dread is beginning to set in as I realize all that I must accomplish.

I also feel my stomach tighten as I begin to think about where the Lord may lead us when we leave. There is something beautiful, and yet foreboding (is that a word) about the unknown. It is sort of like the beginning of a new Dave Matthew's song (haven't heard one in a long time) that you have no idea how it will play out.

I have work for a few hours tomorrow, head to a couple of classes, and then wake up at 4 am so that Paul can drive me to the airport for my conference in Anaheim. I am glad that I am basically packed, but worry about the classes (and husband) that I leave behind... It should be fun, right? I think I may have done this too many times, because the novelty of traveling is beginning to wear off. I return on Sunday only to start all over again (only heading to Houston the following Wednesday). The good news is that I will get to see some of my favorite contacts from work... and all of the other luxuries that travel affords now.

I feel like traveling these days really tests ones Boy Scout or Girl Scout affiliation...how can you survive without any sort of liquid artifact for eight hours? Between these random tropical storms and airport security, I should be up for a new merit badge by now... Maybe Paul and I have been watching too many episodes of 24 on DVD?

As you can tell by my rambling, I don't have too much to talk about. I hope that it stays that way for awhile. Oh, we did host our first small group of the new school year this last Friday, and we were so pleased that some new students joined us. We are reading Eugene Peterson's latest release Eat This Book. Should be fun. Plus my aunt, cousin, and her sweet twin daughters were in town so we had a nice poolside, Florida visit. Sounds like the rest of the O'Sullivan clan had a busy weekend, celebrating the birthday of one of the most notorious partiers, and rushing our favorite Irish lass, Colleen, to the ER. I praise the Lord for all of the nurses in the family and send you my love.

And the same text today:
Monday, September 04, 2006
Conferences
This has been a very relaxed week. I don't really know what to do with the fact that Labor Day weekend has now (basically) come and gone, and now I must take responsibility for my new classes, and the pending roar of the final year (Lord willing) at RTS-Orlando. The Lord has used the last three years here to shape me in ways that I never imagined, but I know that I will come out of this more humbled (suprising after seminary I know) and dependent upon Him than ever before. The dread is beginning to set in as I realize all that must be accomplished.

I also feel my stomach tighten as I begin to think about where the Lord may lead us when we leave. There is something beautiful, and yet foreboding (is that a word) about the unknown. It is sort of like the beginning of a new Dave Matthew's song (haven't heard one in a long time) that you have no idea how it will play out.

I have work for a few hours tomorrow, head to a couple of classes, and then wake up at 4 am so that Paul can drive me to the airport for my conference in Anaheim. I am glad that I am basically packed, but worry about the classes (and husband) that I leave behind... It should be fun, right? I think I may have done this too many times, because the novelty of traveling is beginning to wear off. I dread the liquid inspection and have become a home-body of sorts. I know I will miss fellowship with our small groups and other students too. I return on Sunday only to start all over again (only heading to Houston the following Wednesday). The good news is that I will get to see some of my favorite contacts from work... and experience all of the other "luxuries" that travel affords now (see next paragraph).

I feel like traveling these days really tests ones Boy Scout or Girl Scout affiliation...how can you survive without any sort of liquid artifact for eight hours? Between these random tropical storms and airport security, I should be up for a new merit badge by now... Maybe Paul and I have been watching too many episodes of 24 on DVD?

As you can tell by my rambling, I don't have too much to talk about. I hope that it stays that way for awhile. Oh, we did host our first small group of the new school year this last Friday, and we were so pleased that some new students joined us. We are reading Eugene Peterson's latest release Eat This Book. Should be fun. Plus my aunt, cousin, and her sweet twin daughters were in town so we had a nice poolside, Florida visit. Sounds like the rest of the O'Sullivan clan had a busy weekend, celebrating the birthday of one of the most notorious "partiers," and rushing our favorite Irish lass, Colleen, to the ER. I praise the Lord for all of the nurses in the family and send you my love.






She also has added in a comment about (see next paragraph) while discussing the luxuries her travels now afford) which was not there on 9-22.

Why change the blog after my questions, is there something to hide?


Here is the web address for cached page---feel free to check it out for yourself.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:4vqTU_MtAUIJ:meaghanmay.blogspot.com/+Tolle+Legge:+%22Take+Up+and+Read%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://meaghanmay.blogspot.com/ as retrieved on Sep 22, 2006 23:01:21 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
This cached page may reference images which are no longer available. Click here for the cached text only.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:4vqTU_MtAUIJ:meaghanmay.blogspot.com/+Tolle+Legge:+%22Take+Up+and+Read%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

9/28/2006 08:24:00 PM  
Anonymous maggie said...

semper ref perhaps you can tell me why Meaghan has changed her blog since the day of my questioning her?

A google search of the cached page shows that what I read on 9-25 and wat I am reading today is different. Was she instructed to change that? She changed all the parts pertaining to any question I had asked.

Forgive me for being suspicious of everything that is going on there right now, but considering all the other spin I've read, everything said makes me suspicious.

9/29/2006 05:09:00 AM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

I just can't stop tihnking about this changing of Meaghan's blog after I asked her some questions.

Why did she not simply answer my questions? Why did she change her blog, and then suddenly "semper ref" shows up and questions ME While defending her integrity?

What are they trying to hide? I believe the tax documents reveal enough misuse of donor funds anyway. I cannot see how THOSE facts can possibly be spun to show otherwise.

This is one of the saddest situations I have ever witnessed within the Christian community. For so many reasons...

9/29/2006 08:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maggie,

I hate to deal a blow to your conspiracy theory, but as I previously wrote, I do not know Mrs. May. So I cannot tell you why she changed her blog, but I can tell you that I am pretty sure that is not a sin to revise a blog. Also, I also cannot tell you why she does not answer your questions, though I will say that I certainly can't blame her for refusing.

The only thing that seems to be spinning here is you, and you are spinning out of control. Please give this a rest.

9/30/2006 10:10:00 PM  
Anonymous semper ref said...

Maggie,

I hate to deal a blow to your conspiracy theory, but as I previously wrote, I do not know Mrs. May. So I cannot tell you why she changed her blog, but I can tell you that I am pretty sure that is not a sin to revise a blog. Also, I also cannot tell you why she does not answer your questions, though I will say that I certainly can't blame her for refusing.

The only thing that seems to be spinning here is you, and you are spinning out of control. Please give this a rest.

9/30/2006 10:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Maggie said...

Semper Ref,

Talk about spinning!! It isn't me, haven't you been following this?

"I can't reach Frank Vance."
"I've been emailing Frank Vance since May."
"There is no lawsuit."
"There is an injunction."
"He called me a nincompoop."
"We want $15,000 in damages, but this is not a lawsuit"
"We've withdrawn the complaint."
"We retain the right to sue again."
"I take full responsibility."


And, no it's not wrong, or illegal to change a blog, but WHY were the comments in direct reference to what I'd asked changed, without her answering my questions?

10/02/2006 07:56:00 AM  

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