Contending For Truth - Ligonier Ministries Lawsuit Scandal

Wednesday, September 27, 2006

Ligonier Ministries: "Withrawal Of Legal Complaint"

On Wednesday September 20, 2006 Lignonier Ministries posted a "Withdrawal Of Legal Complaint," as well as a "Public Statement From Tim Dick", on their web site. Two days later on Friday September 22 at 5:27 (EDT) I received an email from Tim Dick which included links to Ligonier's two public statements regarding the lawsuit itself, as well as the alleged "withdrawal" of their "legal complaint" against me. I say "alleged withdrawal" because as of the date of this article the court has yet to receive any paperwork from Ligonier Ministries motioning the court to withdraw the lawsuit.

It's good that Tim emailed me those links because without them it'd be impossible to find those documents. Even though the lawsuit against me is a very public matter they've very carefully avoided drawing anyone's attention to it by not posting any links to those documents anywhere on their web site. Obviously Ligonier is ashamed and embarrassed of what they've done, and they should be.

In a subsequent article I'll address Tim Dick's Public Statement. In this article I'll comment on Ligonier's "Withdrawal Of Legal Complaint":

"On August 24, 2006, Ligonier Ministries filed a legal complaint and a request for an injunction since no ecclesiastical court could be found."
"Legal complaint" is just another way of saying "lawsuit," although for some odd reason Ligonier has been careful to avoid the use of the term, correcting anyone who calls it a "lawsuit." They've also termed their lawsuit an "injunction," again refusing to acknowledge that an injunction is in fact a lawsuit. Additionally, they've also avoided acknowledging that they've sued me for defamation and that they're seeking monetary damages.

The excuse that they sued me because they were unable to identify a suitable "ecclesiastical court" is a sham which in no way absolves them of their Christian duty to not file lawsuits against Christians (1 Corinthians 6). Furthermore, as I've already explained there are multiple Christian organizations readily available which specialize in Christian mediation. Ligonier did have biblical alternatives readily available for resolving this dispute and for them to claim otherwise demonstrates either gross ignorance or blatant deception.
"The filing was an attempt to stem the slanderous and reckless allegations being made about Ligonier and its leaders on the Internet by an individual known as Frank Vance, whose true identity is still unknown to us."
Stemming the allegations could have been easily accomplished had Tim Dick just answered my questions in the negative regarding the Soli Deo Gloria acquisition, "Did you defraud Don Kistler?" Tim repeatedly evaded answering that question, even though we exchanged multiple emails. Had he just simply said, "No, it never happened" then I never would have gone public. Just so Tim would know I wasn't bluffing about giving him a deadline of ten days to correct the SDG issue I posted a comment on August 21 on my blog and also emailed Tim Dick a link to that comment:
"For example something that Tim Dick perpetrated a couple years ago was just brought to my attention (keep those emails coming folks). This is VERY significant news that only confirms that Tim Dick has earned his reputation for being a "shark." This past Friday Tim and I dialogued via email about it. I told Tim about what I now know about how he defrauded a minister. The incident is extraordinarily troubling and if publicly exposed would be devastating not just to Tim Dick personally, but to the entire Ligonier organization. I don't want to see Ligonier harmed. Just the opposite. But I can't in good conscience just stand by and not blow the whistle on a lying thieving con artist like Tim Dick.

"I've communicated my concerns to Mr. Dick along with a proposed resolution. He hasn't got much time. If Tim fixes it then I've committed to not say anything more about it. But I don't give Tim much credit for common sense so don't be surprised if he leaves me with no other choice but to expose it all here. We'll see what happens. Stay tuned."
Tim continued to ignore me and thus he gave me no choice but to go public. He refused to deny the allegations that had been brought to my attention by several men who had first-hand knowledge of what they believed to be an acquisition by fraud of Soli Deo Gloria, a fraud which they blamed entirely upon Tim Dick. Had Tim even once just said, "Frank you don't know what you're talking about. Your sources are misinformed" I never would have gone public. But Tim didn't do that. Rather than denying the allegations he instead used the ten-day deadline as a window of opportunity to SLAPP me. Moving our dispute into the civil courts rather than seeking to resolve it privately as Christians proved to be fatal, not just for Tim Dick personally, but for the entire Ligonier organization. The damage that he has caused Ligonier by his foolish and reckless behavior could prove catastrophic.

As to my "true identity," any such newfound Ligonier excuses obviously didn't hinder Ligonier's ability to sue me. As to these new allegations that I've been operating under an assumed name see my response here.
"The accuser's malicious attacks culminated with the accusation that Ligonier defrauded Soli Deo Gloria, in our recent acquisition of it. This has been categorically refuted by Don Kistler, SDG's founder."
I'll have to reserve comment on the Kistler statement until it can be thoroughly investigated and shown to have actually originated from Don Kistler, and if Dr. Kistler himself did produce it that he wasn't coerced into it. It would be nice if I could say there isn't a cloud of suspicion hanging over that statement, but there is, and I'm far from the only one who's suspicious about it. Among the cloudiness in the Kistler statement is the issue of Dr. Kistler's stroke which allegedly prevented his timely response to my allegations. Yet as of August 20 Dr. Kistler had been released from the hospital and was already publicly posting comments about his recovery. Strokes can be quite serious, but from some accounts Dr. Kistler's health couldn't have been nearly as severely impacted by the stroke as certain Ligonier "senior management" have been leading us to believe. To at least one caller John Duncan described Dr. Kistler's condition as precarious. This has made for an effective cover story as to why it's taken so long for the Kistler statement to be released, but those who are aware of Dr. Kistler's remarkable recovery know that the cover story lacks credibility.

If the cloud hanging over the Kistler letter can be removed then I'll make a point of issuing an apology to Don Kistler. However, no one should expect me to issue an apology to Tim Dick. By refusing to deny the allegations that were brought to me by several credible witnesses Tim Dick brought everything on his own head. Furthermore he could have and should have gotten Don Kistler's statement to me prior to my August 28 deadline, rather than waiting an entire month to arrange for it. Again, everything about the Kistler letter is suspect, but hopefully that can all be cleared up.
"Threats to Ligonier and its leadership have continued to escalate, with the accuser issuing deadlines for Ligonier to answer his non-credible charges. At one point our president was told he had “put a knife to his own throat,” by ignoring the accuser."
If the SDG allegation was "non-credible" then Tim Dick should have just said so. He should have denied the allegations, but he never did. As to the "knife to your own throat comment," I did in fact use that figure of speech, and that's all it was, a figure of speech. Here's what I said in one of my August 18 emails to Tim:
"Tim, you're a bigger fool than I thought. Playing dumb or ignoring me is like sticking a knife to your own throat. You understand perfectly well what I'm talking about, which is exactly why you addressed everything in my email with the obvious exception of the most important issue of all, your theft of SDG by fraudulently switching the contract. Ignore me at your own peril... Ten days Tim."
For Tim to now make an issue of that only underscores how thin-skinned he is, and it's consistent with his suing me for defamation for calling him a "nincompoop."
" Throughout this entire ordeal, numerous emails and posts refuting the accuser were ignored by him."
What emails? I've already gone on the record flatly denying that I ever received any emails of any kind from anyone at Ligonier, Tim Dick or otherwise, "refuting the accuser." As for blog comments, yes I received a number of those, specifically from "Passerby" who claimed to be "Ligonier senior management." However, Passerby refused to give himself any credibility by identifying himself by name or to even privately email me as I suggested he do so that we could dialogue. It was I who sought an opportunity for fruitful dialogue. Passerby repeatedly ignored my publicly-posted offers. Moreover for Passerby to now claim that his rantings could in any way constitute "refuting" is absurd.
"Mediation through ecclesiastical means is always preferred. On at least six occasions, we have sought information from the accuser as to how we might contact his pastor or session. The accuser has refused all requests, publicly scoffing at the notion."
How very godly of them to only now make an appeal to Christian mediation a month after they'd already sued me! Yes, I did refuse to furnish the name of my church and pastor, and I also explained why.
"Having withdrawn the complaint, we ask friends and fellow believers to pray that we will have wisdom as this matter comes to a peaceful end."
That statement was posted one week ago and publicly released two days later. "Having withdrawn" is past tense meaning that as of a week ago it had already been done. A prerequisite for withdrawing a lawsuit is to file the necessary motion with the court so the court can then act upon it. My legal counsel informs me that it would've taken Ligonier's attorneys all of just a few minutes to draw up the necessary paperwork. But to do that it would've first required Tim Dick calling his attorneys and telling them to withdraw the lawsuit. Did that ever happen? Then it would take a day for the mail to arrive at the court, or approximately thirty minutes if Ligonier's lawyers hand delivered it to the court. Ligonier didn't say, "We're going to withdraw the complaint but it might take us a week or three before we get around to it." They publicly announced that it was withdrawn. No doubt the next Ligonier public statement will be all about blaming their attorneys.

The fact that an entire week has gone by after Ligonier's "senior management" publicly announced that the lawsuit had already been withdrawn, and they haven't so much as even filed the paperwork with the court yet, only further undermines the credibility of Ligonier's "senior management." Either they have once again lied, or they are bunglers (and probably both), but neither is befitting for the management of a donor-supported $10 million ministry.

In conclusion I'd assert that Ligonier is in desperate need of a major upper management shakeup. Tim Dick has more than proven that he's unfit to oversee a Christian ministry. He lacks both the ministerial and professional qualifications. Family connections do not a ministry CEO make. But there are others who are complicit in the Ligonier lies and cover ups as well, including John Duncan. They too must go. Ligonier's staff also include at least one who publicly boasts of squandering the salaries they receive, thanks to the financial support of Ligonier donors, on drunk binges and fornicating.

It's time for some major house cleaning. It's time to haul out the trash.

Then there's the matter of the outrageous "compensation" being taken by the Sproul and Dick families, between them over $1 million/year combined. For the Board of Directors to continue turning a blind eye to so many abuses is inexcusable. Just as extraordinary is the silence of RC Sproul himself during this time of crisis. Unless RC Sproul acts swiftly and decisively, and unless RC Sproul himself issues a public statement, Ligonier's credibility will continue to erode. RC Sproul's silence for the past month only sends the message that he fully supports and condones the behavior of his son-in-law.



Please note that Frank Vance's articles are now hosted at Ministry Watchman. New comments are no longer being accepted here.

30 Comments:

Anonymous Saddened said...

Frank,

Thank you yet again for restating and summarizing everything which has already been discussed on your site.

I would assume Ligonier "hiding" their statements would mean they don't want to make this situation larger. Upon a google and blog search, it looks like there are only a few blogs still discussing this.

Regarding Don Kistler, I suggest you forgive him unless you have good reason to believe it is not actually him [which I do not feel you have shown good reason]. His posts elsewhere seem to reflect the nature and tone of his letter to you.

Yes, I agree, they have seemed to make it obvious they do not want to use the actual word "lawsuit".

Concerning the lawsuit and addressing the other legal experts on this site, are you stating that they never intend to drop the suit? And what weight does a public statement of "withdrawal" carry with it?

I would also like to state it seems that you are making a leap in your conclusions about the rest of the organization and your proposed "house cleaning". I do not think that is very charitable, and it makes me question your intentions and ultimate goals.

Again, as I stated a month ago, I am saddened by the lack of Scripture referenced on this and many other blogs [besides Matt 18, and 1 Cor 6]. Therefore, I offer 1 Cor 10 for your consideration.

9/27/2006 10:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Wendi said...

On Wednesday they posted an announcement on their website that they had already withdrawn the lawsuit that wasn't a lawsuit..

On Thursday they sought to have the lawsuit that wasn't really a lawsuit, moved forward (the ex parte thing).

On Friday they sent the emails about how they had already dropped the non-lawsuit.

Am I understanding that sequence right?

9/28/2006 12:02:00 AM  
Anonymous FormerLigDonor said...

Upon a google and blog search, it looks like there are only a few blogs still discussing this.

This is Ligonier's great, misplaced hope. Misplaced, because the blogs no longer discussing the suit are primarily the ones that used to defend Ligonier. As a result of the latest lies, they have gone silent. Who wants to defend the indefensible?

9/28/2006 04:46:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Saddened, I have no reason to "forgive" Don Kistler as I hold nothing against Don Kistler. Dr. Kistler isn't the issue and he never has been. However, Don Kistler may have some things to forgive me over. I have yet to be able to determine that.

As far as Ligonier's public statement about dropping the lawsuit goes, it carries no "legal weight" at all. In fact it's conceivable that the entire thing was nothing but a ruse, as Law Dude already pointed out. I really hope that's not the case but considering all the other deceptions that Ligonier's "senior management" has engaged in it wouldn't surprise me.

The clerks at the court know about Ligonier's public statement and it's obvious they're not impressed that Ligonier would make those kinds of public announcements without at least first getting the paperwork to the court. What this has done is to place a significant burden on them having to field numerous calls everyday from people wanting to know if they've received any legal paperwork from Ligonier.

Ligonier has done an incredible job of trashing their own testimony everywhere their name is known, including among unbelievers.

9/28/2006 06:53:00 AM  
Anonymous More Questions said...

Saddened, Actions speak louder than words. I find it incredible that Ligonier expects Frank to act more Christian than they do considering they are a donor supported ministry that exists to teach scripture.

Your statement also suggests you are advocating the 'political strategy' of this issue just fading away. You seem to measure that by how many blogs are talking about this as to damage done. Is that repentence? Is that Christian? Does RC Sproul, Sr. now measure sin by how many people are talking about it?

You say Kistler's posts elsewhere 'seem' to reflect the nature and tone of his letter to Frank. Are you serious? Why hasn't he contacted Frank directly through e-mail asking for a conversation to clear this up? Could it be because he is basically an 'employee' of Ligonier?

If there is one thing anyone reading this blog, who has an ounce of sense, can ascertain is Frank's intentions. He has made them crystal clear since day one. However, Ligoneir's intentions by their action are totally different than their spoken intentions. I call that lying and hypocritical. Ligoneir has been anything but forthcoming relying on years of built up support and hoping this stays contained within a few blogs. There is only one problem with that strategy: God is watching.

Posting these vague comments only highlights the thinking behind Ligoneir employees or supporters. They do not get it. They think they are above scripture. They think they can ignore very clear teaching in scripture and do what Arminians have done for years; pick and choose scripture to fit a faulty premise.

Is that also what RC Sproul, Sr is now teaching? By the way, why didn't Sproul Sr. sign his name to the 'public' statement? He is not exactly standing tall on this, is he?

9/28/2006 07:00:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Wendi, yes you've got the chronology of events correct.

Believe it or not there are still some who just can't understand why I don't trust Ligonier Ministries.

9/28/2006 07:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Practicing Attorney said...

Wendi, you do understand the sequence quite well. The only thing you left out is that last Wednesday -- the same day Ligonier senior management and Tim Dick were posting their statements on Ligonier's website claiming the lawsuit was withdrawn and taking responsibility for it -- Ligonier's and Tim Dick's lawyer filed a motion with the court seeking help on how to serve Frank -- to speed up the lawsuit. That motion was what led to the ex parte hearing on Thursday.

9/28/2006 07:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Hawkeye said...

For those of us who know Ligonier all too well, covering up and deceitful business practices are common. If you don't believe me, call Ligonier at 1-800-435-4343 and ask if Vesta Sproul works there. The staff has been instructed to say no. But she does work there under her maiden name V. Voorhees. She answers all of R C Sproul's mail, she signs his name to the letters, and she signs her maiden name as the typist. Could this be another way the Sprouls are getting more money for their bank accounts that the donors are unaware of? Can you imagine James Dobson telling his staff not to tell anyone that his wife Shirley works there, when in fact she is working there under a pseudonym?

9/28/2006 08:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Michael Metzler said...

Frank,

A friend recently brought up this question:

"I also looked today and was wondering if Ligonier is a member in good standing of the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability."

Do you know anything about this?

Michael Metzler
www.poohsthink.com

9/28/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Anonymous visitor said...

The resource consultants now admit that Vesta Sproul works for Ligonier. I take that as an example of the power of blogging to increase accountability -- even of ministries structured in an effort to avoid accountability.

The next step is to ask staff what Vesta's position is and when they were told they could begin acknowledging she works for Ligonier.

9/28/2006 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Ligonier is not just an ECFA member they're also a charter member. The bar is set very low for ECFA membership and any Ligonier donors who believe that Ligonier's ECFA membership actually affords some form of accountability would be sadly mistaken. The financial information that ECGA furnishes is useless, and oversight and accountability is for all practical purposes nonexistent. The fact that ECFA provides no ratings of any kind on its members is very telling. I've discussed this problem before.

There are organizations however that do provide useful information on nonprofits, and some also rate nonprofits for various things such as "efficiency." Some even make the tax returns of nonprofits available online. Check out:
Ministry Watch
Charity Navigator
Economic Research Institute
Guidestar (free, but registration required)

Ligonier Ministries consistenty ranks as having one of the worst efficiency ratings of all Christian ministries.

9/28/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

I just received an email a short while ago from a sympathetic lawyer informing me that the court had just received and entered in my case a "Notice Of Voluntary Dismissal Without Prejudice." It's about time!

At this point my legal counsel is taking this as a very positive sign, but he's also not entirely clear what this means procedurally. Court rules vary. This could be the end of it or it could be that Judge Nelson has to sign off on it to make it official. That couldn't happen until next week because Judge Nelson is out of town. So we may just have to wait and see.

Once that gets sorted out I'll post an article about it. There will definitely be some things to say, especially over the fact that they want it dismissed "Without Prejudice." What this means is that they're free to sue me again anytime they want, and by captioning it that way they're probably intending to send me a clear message.

I read the message Tim and it's coming in loud and clear.

9/28/2006 01:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Josh Stuart said...

Funny how there are never any dissenting comments on this blog ...

9/28/2006 01:51:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Josh, if by "dissent" you mean to refer to all the Ligonier shills who keep badgering me for personal information such as pastor, church, denominational affiliation, am I a church officer, home address, phone number, shoe size, etc., you're correct. I ignore all such demands and I've already explained why. I find it interesting that not one single person asked me for any personal information before Ligonier sued me. Then the first time I was asked was only weeks after Ligonier had already sued me and started taking such a public relations beating over it that they were forced to publicly announce that they "had withdrawn" the case. Now all of a sudden I'm getting badgered daily for personal information. Very suspicious.

The answer to all those personal information questions is "No, you can't have it. It's none of your business," and the answer will remain "No" indefinitely. The only possible exception I could see to that is if Ligonier were to withdraw its case against me "With Prejudice," meaning that they legally bind themselves to never sue me again.

If by "dissent" you mean all the various Ligonier shills such as "Passerby" and Brian Thornton and Craig Schwarze who are incapable of engaging in cogent debate but who think that I should permit them to clutter up and sabotage my blog with meaningless diatribes then you're correct, I don't permit such "dissent." Here's just one example from Passerby (only one is necessary --they're all quite the same): "There are a handful of people left (who you continue to deceive) marching to your irregular drumbeat. You seem to revel in your unwholesome fame but your day is past. You and me know that your credibility is shot and your testimony is in disarray, it doesn't matter who else knows it. We both know that your 'verification fetish' is a sham way of avoiding your present condition. If only you had cared to verify your dozen other bogus allegations you would not have wasted the last several months of your life (or ours). Is there not enough Christian ministry, in your area, to keep you busy?"

I'm happy to post cogent dissent because I enjoy the opportunity of replying to thoughtful people, even the ones that disagree with me. But why would I post the juvenile harangues of "Passerby"? I'm not capable of offering a cogent response to incoherent diatribes.

Since it's obvious that you haven't been paying attention there has been some cogent dissent here. I welcome cogent dissent, debate and argument. The problem is that there hasn't been hardly any of it. What little there has been I've approved it. But I won't approve incoherent fulminations that add nothing to dialogue. After all I don't want my blog to start looking like Doug Wilson's

9/28/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Jen said...

This excellent comment was on my site and I just wanted to share it with you.

Table Talk Contributor said...
Ligonier Ministries and Tim Dick have been worldly in responding to blogger "Frank Vance." That is, they have plainly conformed themselves to the world's ways of doing things, no matter who or what "Frank Vance" is.

They could have proceeded on the assumption that Frank Vance was a Christian, and pursued Matt. 18 instead of violating 1 Cor. 6. They did not.

Or, they could have proceeded on the assumption that Frank Vance was an unbeliever, and simply turned the other cheek. They did not. Their inability to turn the other cheek when their CEO is called a "nincompoop" and a thief by someone they consider to be an unbeliever indicates their inability to turn the cheek at any slight or insult or attack.

Or, they could have proceeded on the assumption that "Frank Vance" was an anonymous non-entity, and thus simply ignored him/it. They did not. The guilty flee when no one is pursuing, and the guilty defend themselves when no one (in this case, literally "no one") is attacking.

I have no idea whether "Frank Vance" is a believer, an unbeliever, or a non-entity. But, in any case, the management of Ligonier Ministries has conformed themselves to the world.

They need their minds and hearts renewed by the good news of grace found in a crucified Christ, who loves them and gave Himself up for them. It is possible that they may yet publicly confess and repent. This is what we all hope for. Short of that, though, they will have as much credibility as any other fundamentally worldly organization or business.

9/28/2006 02:15:00 PM  
Blogger Scott Hill said...

The unfortunate thing here is that you are also not ashamed and embarrassed at what you have done.

9/28/2006 04:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Law Dude said...

Mr. Vance,

I'm pleased to confirm that Ligonier has officially filed a Notice of Voluntary Dismissal. But as you've already discovered they've reserved their prerogative to sue you again by withdrawing the case without prejudice. You're wise to remain cautious.

Ligonier's attorneys are Intellectual Property specialists. I'm sure they're very good at what they do but they were probably out of their league on this kind of litigation. If they had any expertise in defamation suits they would've advised their client to never sue you in the first place.

Whether we like it or not the Falwell vs. Flynt case decided in a unanimous U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1988 dramatically changed what can be publicly said about public figures and their organizations. RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries would clearly be viewed by any court as "public figures" as would Tim Dick as Ligonier's CEO.

What Frank Vance has said about Tim Dick is tame by comparison to what Larry Flynt printed in Hustler about Jerry Falwell. In my legal opinion Ligonier never had a chance of winning this case and they were very foolish to have pursued it.

9/28/2006 04:14:00 PM  
Anonymous wondering said...

I am, quite frankly, finding it hard to believe that people like Passerby & hopeful (which many think are John Duncan), Sproul, Sr., Doug Wilson, Tim Dick etc. are Christians. Some are even pastors! I am finding this incredible.

After reading Wilson's blog, I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind would attend his church. He is arrogant, nasty and insulting to people. He would do better to quit posting at all. But to call himself a shepherd?

As to Sproul, Sr., there is no way, I would ever take in any of his teaching again. He does not live or operate what he teaches. He seems to think he is above his own teaching.

This episode and others have made me rethink the reformed position. There are enough verses in scripture to make me rethink it but mainly because these people think they are elect, they think they can live and act anyway they want? They think they can lie, spin, take donor money to live in luxury? They think they are not accountable to anyone? They have made a mockery of God's Word and don't even seem to see it. They have sown seeds of confusion and chaos...on purpose.

Is Ryan Dick elect as we know him now? Of course we do not know except by fruit. I am wondering about all of this because we have not seen any of the major reformed theologians speak out to Sproul and ask him to repent of the lawsuit. Where are they? Where are the Nathan's? Chrisendom is watching.

They are as bad as Billy Graham was with Bill Clinton. Perhaps they think it is none of their business but their silence excuses this behavior and if they teach on stages with him they are endorsing the behavior.

The arrogant posts from Ligoneir employees pointing out everyone elses sin is also another clue to me that perhaps they really have no fruit. I have also been amazed at how many people have tried to qualify the lawsuit by calling it a 'mistake' or not politcially pragmatic. What Ligoneir has done (all of it, the money, spin, lawsuit, etc) is SIN by people who should know better.

But they do not seem to think it is real sin. We are talking about people who even last Wed were back in court trying to file another motion against Frank!

So my question is this: Do saved people who TEACH scripture for a living act this way?

Can any of us ever really trust Ligoneir again unless they seriously repent. I mean fall on their faces in shame repetence. Get discipline for poor Ryan, give up the huge salaries, give up the mansions, clean up their operations and clean house, get real accountability and beg Frank for forgiveness for filing a lawsuit against him. Is that what real Christians would do?

Based on recent actions and the arrogance I have witnessed, I doubt they will do this. But, if they did, it would really Glorify God.

Dr. Sproul, you have made a mockery of God's Word. Yes. Because, in the end, you are responsible for what goes on at Ligoneir.

9/28/2006 04:27:00 PM  
Anonymous jimmy olsen said...

I am glad that Ligonier dropped the suit, as it was the right thing to do. However, what concerns me is that your initial issue (Don Kistler) and other issues that have come to light as a result of this case (such as the outrageous salaries paid to the Sproul clan and the behavior of those paid family members and management) will fade into obscurity. Heaven forbid.

What folks need to realize is that this lawsuit and the Kistler issue are not just passing storms over the calm sea of Ligonier, they are just the tip of the iceberg. Under the surface is a systemic disease that infects this entire "ministry". The only cure is some major organizational surgery.

I pray that "Senior Management" and R.C. himself would see the handwriting on the wall and do some serious praying and make those hard decisions. God is sovereign and He uses all means to chastise His children. God will not be mocked and He will do what is needed to clean house at Ligonier - one way or another.

9/28/2006 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger Headmistress, zookeeper said...

I hope somebody will post a copy of Ligonier's dismissal paperwork. I wish very much to see the date this was filed in black and white.

9/28/2006 04:57:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

Getting a copy of the Notice Of Voluntarily Dismissal is now being arranged, although it isn't being arranged by Duplicitous Dick and his lying attorneys because, as we all know, and as they testified to Judge Nelson, "it is impossible to contact him or to serve him with the Verified Complaint or the Instant Motion. Moreover, counsel was not able to provide the Defendant with the notice and an opportunity to be heard regarding the request for temporary injunctive relief for the same reason."

Funny that. Tim Dick somehow managed to contact me multiple times and I responded to him multiple times. Rene Stutzman of the Orlando Sentinel didn't seem to have any trouble at all contacting me. Yet somehow when it came to notifying me that I'd been sued Ligonier found it "impossible to contact" me so that I could be given an opportunity to defend myself. Now these same men and their shills daily badger me for personal information, ostensibly because of some newfound interest in biblical church discipline. Yeah, right.

9/28/2006 05:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Itsabouttime said...

Frank, this is a private note to you but I think perhaps you may want to file a counter suit. This is to show Lig that they cannot bully people in the future. The counter suit is like punitive damages. It's saying you've intentionally lied, ruined people's lives, and now you better be careful because if you do it again it will cost you. You may not get support for this but I think it's restoring justice in an environment where people have disregarded Scriptures. I can count a dozen of names that I personally know either directly or through friends but their lives have been wrecked by Lig.

9/28/2006 05:47:00 PM  
Blogger CraigS said...

I can count a dozen of names that I personally know either directly or through friends but their lives have been wrecked by Lig.

Yeah right. Please send me their names and email addresses so that I can verify your information (just like Frank is "verifying" Kistler's letter). Otherwise don't make unsubstantiated allegations.

9/28/2006 06:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Always Batya said...

Craigs: I will give you one name: Ryan Dick

9/28/2006 07:22:00 PM  
Anonymous always batya said...

Mr. Vance, please do not counter sue. Someone needs to show Dr. Sproul what it means to 'act' like a Christian and be accountable to the Lord's Word.

9/28/2006 07:25:00 PM  
Blogger APinkFan said...

Frank;
Regarding 'Itsabouttime' and the good Christians that were damaged, I'll match his number of people who have been thrown under the bus by Ligonier and DOUBLE it. Oh, BTW, I don't have to divulge the names to those who have NO CLUE, like 'Craig'. You Craig, are not aware how long this has been going on. Many God fearing Christians, who would have worked for nothing, have been mistreated, looked down on, ignored and played for fools, while they toiled for that ministry, to keep it afloat during the rough times and then cut loose, like so much extra baggage only to make positions available for many unregenerate friends of the family. By the grace of God, justice will prevail.

9/28/2006 08:15:00 PM  
Blogger Frank Vance said...

The countersuit issue has actually come up several times. I had discussion with another prominent Christian attorney just last night. We talked some about legal strategy, but we also talked about our Christian faith and why we're sometimes called by the Lord to take a stand for unpopular causes. This attorney has had to do that several times himself. He's love by some but hated by many and because of that he was able to be empathetic to my plight. We ended our conversation with him praying God's protection for me. I was very encouraged. But after praying for me he then said, "Frank, you should really consider counter-suing Ligonier," and he started to gave all the legal reasons why. I stopped him and explained why that was inconceivable to me. "But wouldn't I be responding in the same unbiblical way that Ligonier has? No, Ligonier has taken the moral low road, and I'm not going to meet them on their level."

9/28/2006 08:18:00 PM  
Anonymous saddened said...

Frank, I wasn't clear on your above comments regarding the countersuit. Are you saying you are considering it?

Wow, there are some really disgruntled former employees on here. Maybe if I knew the whole story I might be sympathetic, but I would be careful as it sounds like apinkfan and itsabouttime thought the ministry was about them. 1 Cor 10 applies here as well.

Speaking of Scripture, I did not see another reference beyond Matt 18 and 1 Cor 6, so I guess I will give up that effort. ...saddened

9/28/2006 10:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Wendi said...

Saddened, I think your confusion is odd. I don't know how much clearer Frank could have been that he is not going to countersue.

9/28/2006 10:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Joyful said...

Saddened: Speaking of Scripture, I did not see another reference beyond Matt 18 and 1 Cor 6, so I guess I will give up that effort.

Mr. Saddened, I'm saddened that you missed the most prominent verse of all on Frank's blog. It's on the home page: "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them." Eph. 5:11. I think that explains what he is doing very clearly.

I suppose it's possible that you still would like to see more Scripture quotes -- and perhaps Frank could have referred to the Ligonier senior management as a "brood of vipers" or Tim Dick as a "whitewashed tomb" -- but would that have been materially different?

In any case, you seem to have overlooked something: Common grace. Frank doesn't need to drop Scripture references into every sentence because he is permitted to use logic and reason, two other gifts from God. Using them honors God and gives him glory.

I am sure you will agree that, if some readers do not honor God because they do not submit to the logic and reason He created as part of common grace, that is their problem, not Frank's. Furthermore, the unreasoning generally tend to be unreasoning when it comes to Scripture as well.

9/29/2006 06:55:00 AM  

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